Painting your own car
I have been considering the idea of painting my own car since it will never live to be mint again. I do not like to alter my cars dramaically from the original but I rarely keep the origal color or the exact interor pattern as some do. So I have considered doing all that myself this time. At my employement I have the use of a compressor and my father still has the extra hose and a filter. That only leaves me with a paint gun to buy. Walmart sells a paint gun for automobile use for around $45. My question is will that suit in everyones opition or would it gum up on me. I am not looking to spend a lot of money so I do not want to waste money on a gun unable to do the job. Would this gun work or if not can someone tell me my cheapest option for a good gun?
James, the new paints, including base coat clearcoats, hold up
much better than the enamels of years ago! I have never had a
problem in the shop with peeling clearcoats, (ford, gm and
chrysler all have on new cars) when the surface is prepared
properly, and what ever manufacturers paint you use, (they are
all good) as long as you use their products from the etching
primer to the clearcoat, and follow the instructions on the can,
you will not have a problem. The biggest problem I have
seen from the "do it yourself" experts, they always
say to sand the primer with 600 grit paper before painting. WRONG,
600 grit is too fine, and the paint will not bite into the
primers. The finest grit I have ever used on primer is 400 grit
wet sanded with a block, and a lot of soapy water. I painted my
Avanti in 1981 with Dupont Centauri, single stage acrylic enamel,
until I let it sit outside for a summer, 2 years ago, it still
looked good, and polished up decent. I plan on re-painting it
this winter, and will probably go with a urethane, haven't
decided if I will clear coat it or not. Just depends on the mood
I'm in when I get ready! I worked at a shop out in So. Cal.
in the late 80's, we always sent our complete paint jobs to
"one day body and paint" We prepped them and supplied
the paint, they looked great, and held up well. Jim Turner
Jim, Have you had any experience with the 3M dry primer sanding system? I was reading about it on their web page earlier and I am very intrigued! It almost sounds too good to be true!? http://www.3m.com/us/auto_marine_aero/aad/solutions/professional/dryprimer/i Tom
Tom, We use that to color sand before buffing, 1500-2000 grit dry. I would not use it (even 400 grit) to sand before painting, as a DA sander is NOT a block! The longer the block, the straighter the panel. Besides, I'm still a little old fashioned, I prefer wet sanding, as when I wet sand and finish a panel, I wash it down with soap and water, and hit the underside wand jambs with the hose, washes out a lot of dirt,trash etc. makes a cleaner job in the end! Jim Turner
Jim, what is the reason for using base coat, clear coat paint process? I don't recall if we had this discussion before but you know how us older folks are. If you don't, ask Harbit. Back to subject at hand. The early Imron sure had durability but those that protect us from ourselves made it cost prohibitive. Is polyurethane paint gone or just not used anymore? I have noticed that newer vehicles have less luster and durability and scratch/chip resistance over time. Ray, your opinions are welcome also. Guys, these are not loaded questions although I have some ideas but not being qualified in paint and body maybe you can give us the straight skinny. Dave L, what did you use on the coupe and why?
First, let me say that I, too, am from the old school, and
don't like change. Like Calvin, I prefer Acrylic
Enamels. I do my best work with PPG Delstar... love the
stuff! Now, to answer your question. <G> We
used a 3 stage... basecoat, tinted clear coat, and clear, 3 coats
each. Why? Several reasons. First, the color I
choose is a Chrysler Candy Apple Red, found on late models.
Such can't be mixed with a single stage. I even considered
selecting another color. But, Craig, the body man that
helped me with the project, is NOT from the old school.
Since he uses the new products daily, he is comfortable with
them, and gave me the old line I got so tired of hearing...,
"If yer gonna do it, do it right."
He and his associates got quite a kick out of teasing me about
using Delstar last week on a project I was doing last week for
the local Lion's club.Painted a big 'ol mail box Lion yellow for
their eye glass collection project. I was yeller from head
to toe when I got done, even though I was in a well vented paint
booth. This was mostly due to turning up the pressure and
narrowing the fan to shoot inside the thing, meaning that all
paint that didn't stick to the project came right out of the box
onto me. Enamels do seem to be much more "sticky" than
a lot of paints, resulting in over spray on everything for
several feet around. They also dry much slower, meaning
they act as a magnet for every dust particle and bug in the area.
Back to the question... Having now used base/clear systems,
I do see some advantages, and am beginning to feel the system
does offer some advantages, and is of equal quality IF DONE
PROPERLY. Too much base, too little clear coat is a
problem, as well as not following instructions on flash times,
etc. Do it right, color sand and polish the finished
product, and I think the durability, depth and shine equals the
old paint. Dave Lester http://www.provalue.net/studes
Thanks for all the helpful advice. I know that the best idea is to take this car to someone who has done this type of thing before, yet if I do I shall never learn to do anything myself. The place that I shall most likely be painting in is by no means a painting booth but is a little better than a shed with a dirt floor. There is a large compressor, two bays, two work rooms, and high ceilings which normally accomidate trucks and bobcats. There is no ventalization other than leaving a bay door open. The last car I had painted was with imron, set out in the sun for ten years, and only needed a wax for the last year. I have never liked clear coat but am undecided on the right paint just yet. I am thinking about a charcoal grey with a strip or two painted down the side. I shall go ahead with the gun though. rusty rusty-old-car@webtv.net
Rusty, I am VERY glad you are going to do it yourself! The only way you are going to learn is to try it and, if you make a mistake or two, learn along the way. I have painted lacquer, plain old acrylic enamel and some BC/CC stuff and like them all. For ease, the enamel was the best and that is what I have shot the most of. The guys at the local paint stores here were always very helpful and made sure I had just what I needed to do the job start to finish. If you have a calm day and wet the floor down enough to settle the dust you should be fine. Usually, if it is a dirty environment, I will get some cheap plastic drop cloths or visqueen and staple it to the walls and ceiling. It really helps with dust falling off those surfaces once you start painting and moving air around. Also, throw a log chain over the axle and let it rest on the floor. I don't know if this REALLY helps eliminate the static electricity that tends to draw dirt to the car or not, but I have always had better finishes (less crap in the paint) than when I did not do it.
< Jim, what is the reason for using base coat, clear coat paint process? >> If you mean me-- its easy- the painter who says he is dying to do my coupe- and is VERY good- has a *thang* for BC/CC and I just know he's gonna say- *Jim- strip that sucker*- and I am NOT into stripping that car- no way- no how! Besides- most of the enamel is good but also black which is a bitch to blend and match As far as durabilty- i have no clue which is better. this 20 year old enamel job still shines as evidenced by the pictures you saw The base coat on my 90 T-bird went dull as hell by 95---- flat is more the word
For the most part I agree with this. My own Avanti was painted in base coat clear coat before I got it by the previous owner. He took a third at the Indy meet with the car and it has not been painted since and it still looks virtually like when it was painted (some of the striping it flaking). That would have been what, somewhere in the '84-87' time frame. However I do not think the new paints look near as good as a nitrocellulose lacquer paint. They do not have the three dimensional effect of, say, the Dupont Duco. Altho nothing provides the depth of finish of Duco, I would be the first to admit nitro lacquers are not a terrible long lived paint, even with plenty of carnauba. They are however, very easy for the amateur auto or piano restorer to apply.
Enamels, and paints like Imron, are all surface gloss to me, no depth at all. Looking into a good nitro job is like looking at a 3 dimensional mirror image. If you saw the Great Performances program with Marizio Pollini at Carnegie Hall a couple months ago on PBS and saw the reflection of his hands in that Steinway, that's the finish I mean. Years ago, in another life so to speak, I used to do a lot of judging. Best paint job I ever judged was a two tone red/maroon one at a Sears Grand Classic many, many moons ago. There was one fellow taking a lot of pictures of the car, so I commented to him on how nice a restoration I thought it was. To make a long story short it turns out the fellow photographing the car was the painter. I remember to this day his description of how he did the Duco job on it (he was on of the few who gasoline sands). Don't remember that painter's name now, but came to find out he had quite a reputation among the Classic Car folk. Even back when this took place decades ago I'm sure that it was a five digit paint job. The car was a 'J', Murphy roadster. I'm sure I have a slide of it myself somewhere.
Good question. I never did any professional painting so I am not the one to answer the question as to how gasoline sanding is better than water sanding, althogh I suspect the paint may absorb a bit of the water from water sanding. In any case, I have had at least a half dozen painters tell me over the years that gasoline sanding is the way to go. One of those was the fellow who did that 'J'. Another, who's name I also forget, was a painter in Ypsilanti who used to do show cars (he did a beautiful job on a '30's 57SC). In his case I actually saw him do some sanding that way. He was a near neighbor of Wilbur Kelly, a frame man from Ypsi that I have mentioned in the past. If anybody on the list from that area remembers Wilbur, maybe they'll remember which painter I'm talking about. Alas, he gave up show cars and built a commercial production paint facility (painting parts for Sears, and Lionel trains). A couple more painters I met over the years that mentioned gasoline sanding were piano restoration guys. At least three of these guys had basically one man shops so there would not be anyone with a power tool going while they were sanding.
> I worked at a shop out in So. Cal. in the late 80's, we always sent our< ...the prep is the trick, I have had many a $99.95 paint job look like a $1500.00 paint job. I remove all I can, do all the preps, and do the detail and clean up all parts before re-install.
Boy Howdy, does it! I shudder to think how much it cost me to paint my truck... I started throwing away receipts after $1,000. And it's a really nice job, but $1,000 even would have bought me a better job. A lot of materials end up wasted, that would not if you did this for a living... 1/2 gallons of reducers and thinners, 3/4 can of CC hardner, etc. Then again, I have the satisfaction of knowing that all the boo-boos are mine, and not some schmuck I can bi%^& at. <G> Ron
I have the TIP HLVP turbine and love it for general use, especially when using Centari.
I use a Sharp gun with the complete nozzle set for BC/CC, and it is the only way to go when using very expensive paints.
I think for Rusty though, don't forget when painting to be really successful, you need a decent area to paint. Dirt and bugs are your mortal enemy. Having a clean area that is well lighted is paramount. If you don't have this, do the prep work and sent it out to MACCO. Finally, some of the newer paints and solvents are REALLY bad for you. I use an outside air supply that I also got from TIP and won't spray anything without it. Your health is more important than anything else! Good Luck! Rhys
Rhys, I have purchased a TIP Gold Medal -95 HVLP paint outfit and only have the 1 quart cup gun that came with the system. When the purchase was made I also bought a full set of nozzles, needles, and air caps. I have never used the system and I am concerned that the paint atomization provided by the standard gun might be insufficient for a good finish. I saw that you stated that you were using a Sharpe gun. I have used standard high pressure Sharpe guns in conjunction with a large compressor in the past with very good results. Are you using a compressor for the air source or do you have a Sharpe gun that utilizes the TIP HVLP turbine as the air source? Randy
Randy, I use the TIP HVLP with great results and no problem with proper atomization (at least using the Centari). The one quart gun is easy to clean, and I always know the air source is free of Oil or water. I use the Sharpe gun for BC/CC jobs, but I use an "oil-less" 30 gal air compressor that is only used for that purpose. So no, the TIP air unit does not work with the Sharpe gun. After having trouble with "dirty" air, having a dedicated air compressor is the best way to go (along with it's own hose). Our shop air lines just have too much junk for regular separators or those inexpensive plastic filters to handle. In all candor, I really like the HVLP as it has a lot less over-spray due to the lower pressure. When you use a high pressure gun, I learned the hard way, how good of a masking job I can do (I can't wrap presents either <g>) I can't claim to be an expert painter, but like Jim said "When I do it, I know all those imperfections are mine, and I'm proud of them." And if anyone gives you any grief about a paint run....just tell them the paint job looks so good - it's crying! Rhys
If it is gonna be out in the sun much...you might want to REALLY consider acrylic enamel and stay away from BC/CC. Just my two centavos worth. Loy Daniel
Rhyser, GREAT point! a lot of the new paints have
isocyanates (sp) which can and will kill you if you breathe them
in too much. A paint booth and fresh air system is
required. I have been known to fire a
painter or two, that refuse to use proper safety equipment! Jim
Turner
Almost ANY location can be a good place to paint. About 15 years ago, a buddy of mine was getting married and wanted his '57 chev HT painted up pretty for the get away car. Try as we might, we could not come up with an acceptable place to paint and ended up using an old, dirt floored, corn crib-type barn in the middle of an Indiana summer. I am sure you all know how bad the bugs are around here! Anyway, on paint night we hosed down the walls and dampened the dirt floor in the barn, set off 6 bug bombs, waited an hour and then rolled the car in. Painted it wiht my $29.95 Montgomery Wards gun and a borrowed construction site portable compressor. The paint job turned out to be and outstanding, flawless job wiht no runs, no dirt and no bugs. Don't be afraid to try it! Hell, the worst that can happen is some more sanding and shooting it again. As far as painting, I can see you don't know much as you don't have a paint gun. There are some things to consider in buying a paint gun.
BLEEDER VS. NON-BLEEDER Do you want a bleeder or
non-bleeder type of gun. A bleeder gun will allow air to
pass to the nozzle without allowing paint in the first step of
pulling back the trigger. The second step will allow the
paint. Most professionals use a bleeder gun as they keep
the air flow on and just bring in the paint. Kinda like
crop dusting.. A non-bleeder brings up paint and air at the
same time. PRESSURE VS. SIPHON VS. GRAVITY FEED Do you want
pressure, siphon or gravity feed. Pressure feed has air
that forces the paint from the cup. Siphon sucks it up and
gravity has the cup above the gun and paint flows into the gun by
gravity. INTERNAL VS. EXTERNAL MIX Do you want internal or
external mix for the paint and air. This will be the type
of fluid tip you will be using and most guns will have external
mix. Normally a gun costing around $100 is usually the best buy
as it has all these features built in. Be sure to check out
the availability of replacement parts and repair kits.
You need to check your spray pattern. It should be a narrow
oval with equal amounts on both sides and no narrow spot in the
middle. Using thinner or primer to check your paint
patterns is useful. Changing the way the fluid tip is on
the gun can make the pattern horizontal or vertical. Your
gun should come with pattern problems and what they look
like. Sometimes the gun may need cleaned in order to
correct a pattern. Always clean the gun after use, and if that
isn't possible right away, spray lacquer thinner through the gun
until you can get to it, but never let it go over night. Use all
paints and primers from one company. Some paints and
primers do not mix and the paint may have a chemical
reaction. I painted my Avanti with an enamel primer,
lacquer paint and Imron clear coat and the horizontal surfaces
flaked off after 1-2 years. This was recommended by DuPont,
but not by the DuPont dealers. The dealer gets good
feedback from the users it supplies paint to.
Dark primers allow the areas where the dings and nicks and
other imperfections to be noticed more quickly. Dark
primers are used with dark paint. Spray paint in a can can
be used as a guide coat to do the same thing as a dark primer
would do. When working with bondo, the bondo should not be
more than 3/32 - 1/4" in 30% of your area. The more
bondo in an area, the more likely you are to have cracks in an
area long
after you applied your trophy winning paint job. Use a
magnate after the area has had the bondo installed and ready to
prime. The magnet should stick to the body through the
bondo.
Wet sand at 280 and 400. Don't block sand this. Your hand should 'feel' the curve of the body and you will be able to feel any imperfections. If you need to really 'feel' the body after it has been sanded and ready for paint, use a clean cotton rag. You will feel everything under it. Be sure to use a tack rag before any prier or paint is ready to apply. If you want to use a 600 grit, I wouldn't go any higher than that.
Taping can be easy if you take the wide 2" masking tape and overlap both the area to be painted and the area to be taped. Then using a sharp single side razor blade, cut at the line where the two areas should be divided and remove the tape over the area to be painted. A powerful exhaust fan and a filter system should be used. If you plan on painting in a shop without any exhaust fan or filter you're asking for trouble. (I should know. I painted a car black in my garage and the next day I had black paint dust all over everything, even the car.) The fine paint dust that never made it to the car or dried during the painting process will then settle on you beautiful body work and you'll have a car that looks like you moulded it with 80 grit sand paper. You might even consider a few classes at the local Community College. Some colleges have Adult Ed classes and they would be in the need of having cars to work on and need paint. If your car is ready at that time, you might get it in to be painted. Other possibilities are that you can talk a local auto body shop into using their paint booth for a few bucks.
Ray: Scuff the entire car with 240-320 grit sandpaper (dry). Any areas that you break through the paint to the original primer or bare metal will ABSOLUTELY need to be coated with epoxy primer, then 2-3 coats of a high-build (2-component) primer. If you do not do this, small circles and rings from where you feather-edged- will surely show up within a year- due to paint shrinkage. Resand (block) these areas with 320 (dry).. and then shoot 2-wet coats of High-Build primer on the entire car. Dry-block rather quickly with 320 (faster to cut surface) , then watersand with 400. Then, It's ready to paint.
Reply:OK guys, I've read all this. Is there anything else to help me color sand my GT? It is a driver and has a fairly new urethane CHEAP Maaco paint job. The paint is about amateur in quality. What sandpaper, what color, what buffing paste, any other tips or procedures? My body shop wants at least $300 to do this. I've read all the posts, figure I can do this. Anthing else to help. Thx
If I were in your shoes I would go to the local paint and body jobber (not pep boys)and purchase some 3m 1200 paper for the color sand then if you have a electric buffer avalible inquire about the 3m foam polishing system, this system is more forgiving that the cloth bonnets, you will have to use the 2 3m compounds made for this system, after that some final finish and you should be in good shape. Keep in mind just for the supplies you will be out about $125 to $175 dollars
What kind of paint to use:
Base/Clear- is all I use these days... I like the gloss, depth,
and repair-ability, It is much more expensive than regular
Enamel, a bit more than Urethane Catalized Enamel (Acrylic
Urethane), If it is cost-saving you are "really"
looking for, You "can" safely use the Dupont Chromabase, and an inexpensive
Acrylic Urethane Clearcoat. I do this all the time with collision
work- when the owner is...er... Frugal. I've never had a
compatability issue. I have customer cars out there with 7 years
of exposure to the elements, without failure. It is a risk, but
IMHO a very small one. Of course... every paint store will tell
you it CAN'T be done, and.... they WILL NOT stand behind the
warrenty...IF you do have any problem. I am up-front with my
customers and tell them beforehand... and leave the decision to
them. It is written and signed for on the estimate sheet- before
any work is done. Ray
> >HVLP guns use SUBSTANTIALLY less materials- 30-50%
less in most cases.
You need about 8-9 cfm to adequately run the typical low-end HVLP
gun. There are 110 compressors out there that will handle that.
Generally 5-6HP, with a 30 gal tank. You should come up with a
suitable used compressor easily. Wiring the garage for 220
shouldn't be that hard either. You could use buried cable... and
I wired my own... I did have an electrician friend check it
before I fired it up, but it's a piece of cake. Or, put the
compressor in the basement and just run a long hose- you would
need to go up to about 11-12 CFM to get adequate flow that far
away, but the increase in cost wouldn't be too great.
> >
For finish coats, I use a $99 gravity feed HVLP gun (Ill look to
see who made it..i didnt really care at the time)... when it gets
"worn" I just replace it, and then the original becomes
a primer-gun. So I sorta recycle them....<G>
> >
Suggestions: Buy the cheap HVLP, and spend the $$ to upgrade your
compressor. My Sears 6HP cost $329 on sale, and I have used it
for 10 years.... 6 of them at the shop as my only compressor. And
you see what I've done with it... Ray